How to balance user acquisition and product quality?

Oleg

Hi everybody! Welcome to Devico Breakfast Bar! Here we speak with different people involved in the business landscape, share their expertise, delve into the latest technology trends, and explore the ins and outs of IT outsourcing. I'm Oleg Sadikov, and today I'm excited to have Whit Lanier, the CEO and co-founder of Amplify Reviews, which is focused on giving financial advisors the easiest, safest, and most compliant way to embrace online reviews. Don't forget to subscribe and hit the notification bell, so you don't miss new episodes. Whit, first of all, thanks for joining me. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us about your professional background?

Whit

Of course. Thank you, Oleg. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. As you said, my name is Whit Lanier, and currently the CEO and co-founder of Amplify Reviews. I think most relevant is that this is the second startup that I've worked on with the same founding team. And as I'm sure we'll get into, both startups are actually also focused on online reviews. Before that, I had a background in management consulting, and product management, and product marketing, sort of had a marketing and product thread woven through all of them. But I think to tee up today's conversation, the previous startup was a healthcare technology startup, and the opportunity that we ultimately identified was to help hospitals take survey data they were already collecting, convert their general feedback question into a review, convert their overall rating question into a star rating so that those hospitals would publish ratings and reviews for their own doctors on their own websites.

And back in 2014, we were the first vendor to offer that capability. And over the next six years, we saw our company wound up, working with over 400 of the largest healthcare systems in the country. So, Amplify Reviews, I got pulled away to a different chapter in my career. I was lucky enough to get back together with those same co-founders. And Amplify Reviews is really positioned to try to capitalize on a new opportunity for financial advisors that is enabled by a new regulation from the Securities and Exchange Commission that allows for the first time testimonials and endorsements to be used as part of marketing. So, we anticipate a very similar. Our thesis is that we'll see similar adoption in the financial advisor world and that the experience we're bringing from healthcare is very relevant in terms of while they don't have the same compliance needs, they have a lot of regulatory needs in healthcare, and they have a lot of privacy concerns. So, we feel like there's a lot of parallels.

Oleg

Okay. Thanks. What inspired you to start this venture? And what were some of the early challenges you faced?

Whit

The inspiration, I think, was twofold. One was, as I alluded to, the timing just worked out that me and my two co-founders were available and in a life position that we would have the opportunity to work together again. And I am extremely fortunate that I know these guys so well. I trust them. I know we work well together. I think you pair that with the idea that the opportunity that I described in the financial advisor world really, you know, we got very familiar with online reviews in a number of industries, and when we became aware of this opportunity and financial advisors, it just seems like this is one of the last industries out there that has not yet embraced online reviews. We feel like our experience and our background uniquely prepared us to be able to serve that market and give them a level of control and compliance that I think they're going to want. To the second part of your question, I would say the biggest challenge is I have not had, our confidence is not shaken that this industry will adopt reviews the way that other industries have. It is hard to be early, and it is hard to be first. So, we are adding customers, and they're very happy customers and clients. But I think – it's probably true of every startup – we would be happier if we were adding customers more quickly. And I think that tipping point is coming. It's just we're constantly gaining momentum and accelerating. It's good to be early, but it's also hard to be early.

Oleg

Yeah, this is relevant to all startups. Everyone wants to have more customers, obviously.

Whit

It's true.

Oleg

How do you approach the development and iteration of Amplifier Reviews platform to ensure it remains relevant and effective?

Whit

So, that's an interesting question for us for a couple of reasons. One is when we founded this company, we had a concept and a platform. So, I should back up: previous company was acquired towards the end of 2014, and we all stayed at the acquiring company for a while, and then eventually moved on to different opportunities. When we got back together, the core premise was very similar in terms of the main feature set was going to be very similar to what we had built before. And so, 80% of the functionality was a really great opportunity to basically rebuild a feature and functionality set with the wisdom of almost a decade of experience. So, that both, in terms of how we architect it and how we present features, were a little bit better, a little bit more efficient than they were before. Now, beyond that, especially as I talked about early in the life of the startup, we can have a bunch of really positive conversations about developing new features.

But the hard part is figuring out which ones are going to attract revenue versus which ones are just cool-sounding features. And I think this team that I work with has done a pretty good job of refining the idea of a minimum viable product. So, we do that all the way down to the feature level. So, if there is something that it seems like there is market demand for, there's two things we'll approach. One is what is the smallest version of that feature set that would start to address the underlying need or problem. And then number two is all of us have a willingness to roll up our sleeves and do a decent amount of manual work before we formalize something in the code base. And so, if there's a feature that could be done manually behind the scenes, we will do that, we'll put in more manpower to get it done for a little while to make sure that the idea of how we would be developing a feature functionality is on track so that we can minimize the number of actual developmental iterations to get it to where it needs to be.

Oleg

That's interesting. How do you see the future of online reputation management evolving, especially with advancements in AI and machine learning? What opportunities and challenges do these technologies present for Amplify Reviews and its clients?

Whit

So, I probably have two answers. Actually, before I dive in, broadly, I think the appeal of reviews to consumers across industries is delivering on the promise of learning about a human's experience with something else. So, you can read all you want about specs, and features, and credentials, and capabilities. But a lot of times, what people really care about is what is the experience of using this product, or this service like. And so, that human element of it, I think, is a big part of the appeal. With our approach for financial advisors, our recommendation is that we use a closed-loop feedback system so that only verified clients get the opportunity to leave a review so that the folks who are reading them have confidence that they are from human beings and from real clients. Now, if we look a little bit more broadly, I think there's two AI applications. One we already see, and one maybe is in place behind the scenes.

The one we already see is on sites like Amazon that have a tremendous volume of reviews. They're using AI to provide summaries and themes that they see in reviews. I think that's great and helpful for consumers. I think we still see consumers want to read individual actual reviews, but it's great to have, you know, that's a great use case for AI to parse a huge amount of data and summarize themes. I think what we may see on the other end is for reviews that are not left on a closed-loop system where you're able to verify that everyone is a human, and a real buyer, or a real client, we may see AI, we may see AI systems trying to detect where there are fraudulent reviews, either written by a bot or submitted in a suspicious way, because there's a lot of incentive for people, especially on a site like Amazon, to do review stuffing, try and get fraudulent reviews in there, and jack up the number of good ratings and reviews.

Oleg

In addition to your professional life, do you have any personal interests or hobbies that you're passionate about, and how do they complement your work or provide balance in your life?

Whit

There's three other things that take up a decent amount of my time, or at least would like to take up a decent amount of my time. You know, before the pandemic, I played in a band. I played the bass guitar with a rock-and-roll band. Guys in that band are still some of my good friends, and we have not given up the idea that we are still a band. But we have played a lot less frequently since we got out of the pandemic. So, music, my family – I have three kids, I love spending time with them – and I train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which takes up a lot of my time. The band, actually, I've been in a couple of bands. And I think the best lesson from that... Well, I should clarify: neither of the bands that I've been in have had a real chance of blockbuster success. So, the people there are doing it only because we enjoy it. And it's a really interesting endeavor where you have to have a lot of collaboration. You basically have to have chemistry, you have to have a lot of collaboration, and you have to know that the only reason people are showing up is because they want to. And I think that provides a great perspective on working together on a shared goal, because yes, when you get into a corporate environment, you have a hierarchy, and you have a theoretical power structure. But I think to get people as motivated as you can, you almost want to treat it as though people are only there because they want to be there, and you want to try and make sure everybody is getting some satisfaction out of the work that they do.

Oleg

My nine-year-old son has three trainings Brazilian jiu-jitsu every week. So, I see what he's doing. And I visited a few trainings, competitions. And that's amazing. So, my next question is you're deeply involved in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and how has this discipline and mindset cultivated in material arts influenced your approach to entrepreneurship and leadership?

Whit

Well, I think it's fantastic if your son is training. And I don't know exactly how old you are, but I can tell you, you're not too old to start, Oleg. You would love it as well.

Oleg

I'm 40 years old.

Whit

You're young, plenty young. That's a great question. So, I'm very passionate about jiu-jitsu. I've been training for a very long time. There are two ways that it's been great for me, I think, in this entrepreneurial journey. One is just the very nature. If you've observed this, you know, so you have sparring in every training session. It's not punching and kicking, but it is full resistance grappling training. And what you can guarantee if you are new to jiu-jitsu is that you will be defeated many, many times, probably, in one day, your first day there. But in the journey of pursuing it, you will suffer many, many, many defeats. And I think it is that practice as well as the culture around the training environment that gets you very comfortable with failure not being a failure, right? Failure as a stepping stone and a learning experience. And so even, you know, I think you said your son has competed. It stings a little more if you take a loss in competition, but what it does more than that is really puts a spotlight on what it is you need to work on, what it is you need to improve to continue moving forward.

And so, as I'm sure you know, all startups come with a healthy dose of failure, or at least setbacks along the way. And so, I think there's a great metaphor between what you have to do in a physical pursuit to go back out there again, and again, and again, after suffering a setback, just like it happens in entrepreneurship, I will tell you the other thing that's great is I've been teaching now. I teach one class a week at our school. And the other part that I'm sure you hear from a lot of entrepreneurs is there are bad days, right? There are hard days. There are days where it feels like nothing is going the way you want it to, or that you didn't get nearly as much accomplished as you thought you should have gotten done in that day. And so, this is not specific to jiu-jitsu, this is what I would encourage for any entrepreneur, if there's any little outside pursuit you can have... There were a number of times where I was having a bad week. I wasn't feeling good about the progress that I was making towards the company and towards the goals we had. And somehow I'd go spend one hour trying to get clear on what I was going to teach, communicate that to the class that I was teaching, and then see just little sparks of understanding or appreciation on their faces, and it did a tremendous amount to sort of restore my motivation back in the entrepreneurial world and just help my mindset and outlook. So, that's probably a longer answer than you wanted, but I could talk about jiu-jitsu all day.

Oleg

Are there any problems that you see in your current business, current industry right now?

Whit

Not really problems. There's an interest.

Oleg

Challenges?

Whit

Yeah. Well, so there's an interesting gray area that is being debated right now. And that is the question of Google reviews. And again, this is specific to financial advisors because it's such a regulated market. It is clear that advisors are allowed to have a Google Business Profile. It is not clear to what extent they can encourage their clients to leave those, because there are regulatory requirements to provide disclosures around each of the reviews, and you aren't really able to do that with Google. So, there are thought leaders who say it's totally fine to use Google, and there are thought leaders who say it's absolutely against the regulations to encourage anyone to leave a Google review. My hunch – so this isn't a compliance podcast, and I'm not a compliance professional – my hunch is that the better metaphor is kind of thinking of it like a speed limit, right? Everybody knows if you're going above a speed limit, you're technically breaking the law, but a lot of the time you can get away with it, and it may benefit your life. So, I think, ultimately, it's going to be a question of the risk tolerance of each compliance department. I think, eventually, people will want to have a robust reputation management strategy, and one way or another, that will include Google. But our approach lets you start by avoiding that question altogether.

Oleg

Are there any professionals or leaders in your network who inspire you in your professional journey?

Whit

You know, there are a number. It is hard to pick an answer. I will mention a couple of them. The two guys that I co-founded this business with are really great motivation and inspiration. That's why I was eager to work with them again. That's Tim Collins and Andrew Ibbotson, in case they want to shout out. And then, surprisingly, a lot of the opportunities that I've found in the financial advisor world has come from a group called Females and Finance, and they will encourage men to join as well. But every connection that I've made through that group has been really positive, and helpful, and beneficial. And so, I like to give them credit when I have an opportunity.

Oleg

With your background in both marketing and product management, how do you strike balance between driving user acquisition and engagement in delivering a high quality product experience to your customers?

Whit

I mean, it's a very difficult question, Oleg. You can't really have one without the other. I will tell you, I'm going to dodge the question a little bit and tell you a story about a previous job that I had. We had a SaaS product – a software as a service product – that 70% of our customers didn't log in in a given month. And I'd be willing to bet that is the norm for a number of subscription software as a service products. But it gives you a lot of anxiety, because on the one hand, you want to announce new features and undertake a lot of initiatives to try and get those folks re-engaged, and, on the other hand, if I'm honest, if they're paying every month, and they're comfortable paying every month, not using the product, you kind of don't want to rock the boat and remind them, 'Oh, here's a new feature on the tool that you haven't used in six months' and give them a reason to back out. So, I think that is the essence of it. It's essential to get new users adopting and engaging the tool. And you want to try and make sure there are mission-critical features that they're all going to use. But I think my answer is you all also have to develop a certain comfort with the discomfort of knowing some part of your user base is essentially treating your subscription product like almost an insurance policy or an option that they may want to use. And you always run the risk that they may recognize if there's a cost-cutting initiative, that you're on the chopping block.

Oleg

Could you share any insights or strategies for entrepreneurs looking to navigate the regulatory landscape, especially in industries like finance, where compliance is a significant concern?

Whit

Compliance is tricky. I think it's similar if you've worked in a corporate environment, and you've had a legal department that you ever needed to get approval for some initiative or something that you wanted to do. I think one important framing of your question or your initiative is you should never go in and ask, 'Can we do X, Y, Z?', or 'Are we allowed to do X, Y, Z?' You have to go in asking the question, 'How can we do X, Y, Z?', or 'How can we do this in a compliant way?' So, I mean, for us, we had a lot of conversations to try and build a feature set around checking the main boxes. But then a lot of times, you know, part of our sales process is we have a project champion who then has to go work with compliance. And I think the number one rule is if you make it easy for compliance to say 'no', it is in their best interest to say 'no' and move along. So, try and frame it in terms of collaborative problem-solving, not asking permission.

Oleg

In light of the global shift towards remote work, how do you think this trend will impact the future of talent acquisition and workforce management, particularly in the tech sector?

Whit

Yeah. Well, I imagine you've seen the same thing that maybe even before the pandemic, you know, there's been strong demand for tech talent for a long time. And I think technology software development is one of the things where it has made sense early on to look to remote talent, both because of scarcity of local talent and because of the nature of the work that let people do that. I think post pandemic, when other functions have started to take a harder look at remote work, it has only made potentially more sense to do that. The one counter I will say is I think for the young people who are coming out of school in the past few years and starting their very first job ever completely remote and never, never having any physical co-workers, I think they may find that they would want to spend at least a little bit of time in a more corporate environment. But ultimately, even if that's a short chapter, I think the whole concept of a results-only work environment makes a lot of sense in a software development environment. And so, ultimately, I think if someone is able to deliver quality product, quality code, quality work in a timeframe, I don't think employers should care where they are. I don't think they should care really about any other variables.

Oleg

The CEO of Nvidia recently said that kids shouldn't learn programming languages anymore; they should learn prompt engineering. Do you think AI will change the tech talent situation?

Whit

Well, yes. The short answer is yes. AI will absolutely change the tech talent situation. I think it is already creating a new class of jobs for prompt engineers. And I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. However, I almost think of it like we will always need people who understand somewhat what's going on under the hood, right? AI is tricky because I think in a number of cases, the number of people who understand the guts of how an AI algorithm works is diminishingly small. But I think your question's getting at, ‘Will we need fewer programmers or coders?’ We probably will need fewer coders, but I certainly don't think we're going to eliminate the need. I think there will always be a need to understand exactly how things get done. We will always need debuggers, a human who can take a look at code and understand what might be going on, no matter how good the AI gets.

Beyond that, I will admit it is hard for me to imagine 10 years from now, what it's going to look like. Are there going to be new programming languages that are all AI, that like there's almost never a human sitting down and writing code for it? So, I admit, it's very hard for me to wrap my mind around it. I will end by saying, while I did not study coding in college, since I've been working in technology, I've learned a lot of CSS, and JavaScript, and obviously HTML. I think it's a valuable skill for kids to learn, whether or not they're going to use it. I think if they're going to be moving into a technology world, it would serve them very well to understand how in the old days computer code was written, just so that they have a good understanding of structured thinking, and conditional logic, and everything along those lines.

Oleg

How do you attract and retain top tech talent? What strategies have you found to be effective in building strong and skilled teams?

Whit

To answer that question, I'm going to talk more about my experience from a previous startup. We have not gone on a big hiring spree. The last startup was a venture-funded startup, and we did have a couple of bursts where we had to do a lot of hiring. I don't have a quick answer for you for attracting, right? It is a challenge. If you can happen to be in an industry that has some cachet that is sexy, that is interesting for people to work on, that certainly helps. And so, being in Atlanta, in a startup, there were some people who liked the idea of joining an early-stage startup. And back then, there weren't that many. There's more now, but that still has a little bit of appeal. But if I had to boil it down to something, I think the rule that we tried to follow was hire slowly and fire quickly. And it's very hard to do that. But I know one time we hired someone that we felt really good about, and within the first two weeks, we realized that we had not correctly assessed the fit for this person's skills with the job that they were hired for. And so, they were only employed for two weeks. And it felt bad to let the person go after that short of a period, but it was absolutely the right thing to do. And I think, going back to what we talked about earlier, if you can acknowledge that you are going to make mistakes, that you're going to have errors, it is helpful to know it's going to happen so that you can try and recognize it more quickly and rectify the situation as quickly as you can.

Oleg

Could you share how your development team is structured in your current project? And have you ever outsourced your tech needs to an external vendor?

Whit

We have a very small internal team here that does most of what we need to do, both directly coding themselves as well as wherever possible using a service or an API where we can. In my last role, we have done some outsourcing. I think the most important thing on outsourcing is making sure you have a good cadence of communication. And I will say it's important if you're going from a small team and growing, you do need to be aware that you need someone to play the role of a product manager or a technical product manager. And so, part of what has been fun, working with my core founding team, is that we have a rapport, we know that we think similarly, and we can move very quickly. On your earlier question about feature development, that's the other thing.

One of our biggest assets is a company, is that we're able to move extremely quickly because we have a good rapport. So, I think outsourcing makes a ton of sense. It's just something that you need to recognize that you need a little bit more maturity as a company to be willing to articulate exactly what it is that you need. And I'll say that's something you need to do as you grow – whether you outsource or not – you just need to make sure there's somebody who is able to document and articulate clearly what it is that you want and what does success look like? So, important to have that in place before you outsource. Otherwise, it'll be like when people buy a product hoping the product is the solution, when really the product's going to enable the solution.

Oleg

Thanks for the detailed answer. What are the benefits and drawbacks of IT outsourcing?

Whit

I think the benefits are usually after an initial ramp up, I think it is speed and scale that, what we alluded to earlier, if you have to wait until you hire in-house, you often will either have to settle for second-tier talent or wait a very long time to get talent in-house, whereas usually one of the big benefits of outsourcing is there is capacity available to you in the moment. I think often there is a cost advantage. Sometimes you're buying that speed and scale. And so, there's not as much of a monetary savings, but you're still getting a cost advantage by being able to pursue functionality and development faster. So, I think those are the two big benefits. The drawback is, you know, as much as remote work is going to become the norm and forces you to become a mature company, and your processes, and your documentation, being in the same room with somebody always has some benefits, right? And so, at this point, I think it seems like only the biggest and richest companies can have that luxury. And I think even those companies usually let folks work remote most of the time.

Oleg

Whit, thanks for your time. I don't have any more questions. Really, thanks for joining me. I do believe that was very useful conversation. I hope that this information will be relevant to our auditory. Thanks for joining. If you enjoyed the discussion and want to stay updated on future episodes, don't forget to subscribe and hit the notification bell. This way, you will not miss our latest insights and conversations from Devico Breakfast Bar. See you in a week.